In this latest episode of The Schelling Point podcast by GSBN, maritime and international trade law expert and Chair of the International Working Group on Maritime Decarbonisation at the Comité Maritime International, Haris Zografakis joins GSBN CEO Bertrand Chen to get to the heart of shipping’s decarbonisation challenge.
As a partner at Stephenson Harwood and co-ordinator for the Blue Visby Consortium, Haris explores why the future of maritime sustainability depends on practical legal and business solutions, not just environmental idealism or new technology. While the tools to track and communicate with ships already exist, the real bottleneck lies in aligning fragmented interests across the industry.
He dives into the Blue Visby approach, which tackles the deeply rooted “sail fast then wait” practice and shows how optimising ocean passages, rather than waiting for a perfect just-in-time system, can deliver real carbon savings today. The discussion reveals why true just-in-time arrival is more of an ideal than a realistic solution in the current fragmented shipping industry, and how Blue Visby’s operational and contractual innovations can overcome split incentives and resistance to change.
Specifically, Haris introduces BlueGA, a contractual system inspired by the ancient principle of General Average, designed to fairly share the costs and benefits of emissions reduction between the stakeholders and motivate all to participate. Haris also shares his work with the Comité Maritime International, pushing for the introduction of standard liability clauses to cover new risks that will arise from the adoption of alternative fuels.
If you want to understand how business, law, and technology intersect to drive meaningful change in maritime sustainability, this episode delivers clear, actionable insights about what works and why.
01:40 – Meet Haris Zografakis: The Legal Mind Behind Maritime Decarbonization
02:19 – From Athens to London: How One Legal Conference Changed My Life Trajectory?
06:23 – “I’m Not an Activist”: A Lawyer’s Hot Take on what is needed to drive actual progress in Decarbonization
08:58 – “Stop Complaining About Lack of Policy Change”: What Armchair Generals get wrong about Decarbonization
16:27 – The 18$ Billions per annum “Sail Fast, Then Wait” Problem Explained
21:34 – If Aliens Lands On Earth, Our Shipping System Design Would Make No Sense to them!
22:51 – Debunking the “Low-Hanging Fruit” Myth: Why Just-in-Time is not achievable?
25:58 – Blue Visby’s Insight For Decarbonisation: Focusing only on the Ocean Passage
37:12 – How the Blue Visby Algorithm Works?
41:08 – The Legal Challenge: How To Bind Competing Parties?
49:37- The P&I Club Model: A Hundreds-Year-Old Innovation to Solve Coordination Problems
52:40- Split Incentives: Why Ship Owners & Chartered Don’t Cooperate?
54:25 – Time Charter vs. Voyage Charter: The Fundamental Tension.
1:08:20 – BlueGA: Reviving An Ancient Legal Principle To Align Modern Financial Incentives
1:05:03- How to Compete Ruthlessly, But All The While Make Money Together
1:09:05 – Inside the Marubeni Pilot: Real Ships, Real Data, and Real-World Results
1:16:15 – The Network Effect: How Every Blue Visby User Makes The System Stronger?
1:18:14- Chairing CMI: Making Decarbonisation Law For a Global Audience.
1:21:50 – What does “Ammonia-Ready” mean in a contract?
1:24:03 – The Green Fuels Liability Framework: The Looming Crisis No One is Addressing
1:26:50 – The Age of Decarbonization Innocence is Over
Maritime and international trade law expert and Chair of the International Working Group on Maritime Decarbonisation at the Comité Maritime International, Haris Zografakis joins GSBN CEO Bertrand Chen to get to the heart of shipping’s decarbonisation challenge